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T O P I C
The End of Oil
January 12th 2004, 10:00 CET by zimbardo_ugly

Not that I'm trying to turn the 'Crap into Kuro5hin or anything, but I would love to discuss this thing with people who I - sort of - know a little. Well, know in the sense I know what to expect, at least.

Civilization as we know it has lasted for - what? - a couple of decades? I mean, it's hard to imagine modern society without the Internet, without telephone, without transportation or without food. And, according to this, which at first is very easy to dismiss with a wave of a hand as yet another raving paranoid monomaniac as credible as the rest of the Internet, civilization is about to change drastically in a few decades. The problem is, once you start following his "links" and following their links, you find a lot of moderately to most credible research data which kind of claims the world will not be able to support even a smallish fraction of its current population, once we run into the end of oil reserves. Also, "The days of cheap oil are numbered. Energy scarcity will bring major global recession, food shortages, fighting over resources, and (literally) billions of human deaths". How true is it? How true can it be?

We regard our civilization and our heritage as a huge, monolitic proof that our way of life cannot end. In that, we are wrong.
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#22 by Dethstryk
2004-01-12 14:59:40
jemartin@tcainternet.com
E-ph0nk -

If that was a valid way of gauging it, I'd agree. Unfortunately, partisan politics and people who refuse to vote for ideals but rather for parties will skew any kind of real information on it.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#23 by bago
2004-01-12 15:00:26
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Yeah, okay elrich.

The moneky poured coffee in my MOOTZ!
#24 by Dethstryk
2004-01-12 15:02:03
jemartin@tcainternet.com
Cal Elrich? You want me to shoot someone?

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#25 by Jibble
2004-01-12 15:03:01
This just in:

The Bush family doesn't so much like Saddam Hussein being in power.  This being the case it's possible that they wanted to invade Iraq and could use anything as an excuse.

This is Jibble, reporting from the 2000 election.

Also, Bush fired O'Neill about a month ago.  You think he's not just a little pissed about that?  Of course he's going to validate any "rumors" that were circulating that portrayed Bush negatively.

Related to his firing, this seems incredibly appropriate:

The resignations (of Larry Lindsey and Paul O'Neill), which came within an hour of each other, coincided with the release of a report showing 6 percent unemployment in November, matching April's rate, the highest since August 1994.

Considering it's more Bush's fault than O'Neill's that things are in the shitter, I think that shows about how much he cares whether he's doing a good job. (Hint: O'Neill openly opposed a lot of Bush's economic policies that have led to the destruction of all kinds of surpluses)

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#26 by Jibble
2004-01-12 15:05:02
Also, Teddy Rubskin is the best name for a bath sponge ever.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#27 by bago
2004-01-12 15:06:34
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Paul Ehrlich vs. Julian Simon

http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/People/julian_simon.html

The moneky poured coffee in my MOOTZ!
#28 by E-ph0nk
2004-01-12 15:06:35
http://www.electrophonk.be
Deth -

We've had this discussion before, but that's why I have a problem with the American voting system - as opposed to a multi-party election and governement.
The US lacks alternatives because you can either vote central-right, central left (both heavily financed by the lobby groups and corporations) or for your "alternative" party, that seems to lack any effecient opposition work.  There is little that can be done about it, as the current parties are unlikely to change this system - as it will give them less power.  

It's really a shame, because with the seize and importance of the US, comes great responsability towards the rest of the world - and another period for the bush administration is unlikely to be the best thing for both the US and the world.

*sigh*
#29 by Duality
2004-01-12 15:08:33
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
A month ago?

Try one year and a month ago.

#30 by Jibble
2004-01-12 15:13:23
Durr, bluh...I should probably check the years when I'm reading articles.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#31 by The_Joker
2004-01-12 15:18:31
http://www.jackinworld.com
Deth:

It's nothing personal, as I have many friends who are americans.

When I say 'stupid american fucks', I generally mean the american government, those who are pro that government, and jafd.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
#32 by Duality
2004-01-12 15:19:53
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Well then next time, specify those stupid american fucks.  The rest of us stupid american fucks wish not to be lumped into the same category, as its insulting.

#33 by Gunp01nt
2004-01-12 15:20:45
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Stupid Surinamers always generalising everybody.

"We need to eliminate redundant trolls and consolidate our trolling interests into one streamlined mega-troll."
-Bailey
#34 by The_Joker
2004-01-12 15:38:19
http://www.jackinworld.com
Stupid Hollanders always having an opinion on Surinamers.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
#35 by m0nty
2004-01-12 16:31:49
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Stupid Australians butting in where they're not wanted.
#36 by "Ralack"
2004-01-12 16:38:03
Stupid lurkers always typing something that nobody will read.
#37 by "Bad Mojo"
2004-01-12 16:42:13
I have an uncle who works for GM and he's been telling me of the pressure GM as well as the other two American car companies have been under from the government to develop engines that use alternative fuel sources (this is a political move really, just to eliminate American dependency on Middle East oil reserves.  Scores well with the 'tree-hugger' interest groups as well). The companies in turn have responded with things like the Hybrids.  Also I believe GM will be releasing vehicles sometimes in the near future (I think this year) that'll allow one to turn off half of the pistons in an engine at will, perfect for those occasions when you're stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.  These are some of the more immediate, quick fix solutions.  However, the big push, my uncle tells me, is for vehicles to switch over to hydrogen fuel cell technology in the next couple of decades.  They already have some fairly successful test vehicles and interestingly enough, the waste is drinkable water :).  

What's my point to all of this?  I don't think we're in as big trouble as the article proclaims.  Yeah, oil will run out but I think we'll have some pretty good alternatives for transportation by then.

Also, while we're on the topic of depleting oil resources, there's another resource that is equally if not more important than oil that we are running out of: fresh, drinking water.  Of course, tech could alleviate this problem as well.
#38 by LPMiller
2004-01-12 16:56:28
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Well, it seems like fuel cells would cure that. Thirsty? Put a tap in the car.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#39 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:02:12
Considering that you can purify 4 liters of water in about 20 minutes with a flashlight-sized device ("more time for sketchy water"), I don't think we have a lot to worry about.  Have you seen any headlines about soldiers dying from drinking bad water?  Didn't think so.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#40 by Bailey
2004-01-12 17:08:41
The sooner we get to start shooting people for their go-juice, the happier I'll be.

Life without shame.
#41 by Charles
2004-01-12 17:21:03
www.bluh.org
GM is working on hydrogen fuel cell cars that are revolutionary.  It's all drive by wire, with no real engine.  Just some electric motors on each tire.  They are aiming to put them in full production within a decade.  

Current estimates show that by the time this is ready to go, hydrogen will still cost about ten times that of gasoline right now; but I figure that since the prices of gasoline and oil products are probably going to keep rising indefinitely, there probably won't be too big of a gap.  Plus I'm sure someone will figure out a better way of filling the hydrogen fuel cells.  Not only that, but as a transitionary element, gasoline fuel cells can be used with the car, instead of hydrogen fuel cells.  

I don't think the lack of oil will be a real issue cause there's a possible solution for just about every scenario.  And if there isn't a good one, we'll either A) Make it work, or B) find a better one.  It's amazing what pressure can do.

I'm not exactly worried about society collapsing because we can't take cars to work.

<Gabe> My indifference is palpable!
#42 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:24:32
If anything we'll get thinner.  All the better.

Re: Bailey - you're dying to stab people with that Tank Girl water harvesting device, aren't you.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#43 by Terata
2004-01-12 17:26:40
I think we all are.
#44 by Ashiran
2004-01-12 17:31:08
Fatties will just die.

Or be eaten.

I tolerate everything except intolerance.
#45 by deadlock
2004-01-12 17:32:17
http://www.deadlocked.org/
I'm stating the obvious here, but since no one else has bothered, here goes:

Whether or not oil shortages constitute a significant problem depends entirely on the situation and could even turn out to be a positive thing in some respects. Not being able to transport goods across the globe by road will probably be a bit of a boon for local employment, I'm (half-) thinking.

Also, a shortage for oil will pose a bigger problem for places like, say, Los Angeles than for New York or Paris. LA was/is built almost entirely with cars in mind, whereas NY and Paris where not. Obviously people in the suburbs of those cities will have a hard time travelling to/from the centres.

I'm thinking that one of the biggest obstacles (for the average road-user) will be getting people out of the mindset that makes them believe that they have to drive to the local shop rather than walk the two or three miles.

I know there are wider issues here (not everything that is currently distributed via our road network can be produced locally, for example), but even taking that into account I don't think we're quite into a Mad Max situation.

ridicule is nothing to be scared of
#46 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:32:27
Soylent Green, coming soon to your grocer's freezer.

Disclaimer: Taste varies from person to person

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#47 by chris
2004-01-12 17:34:33
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
It saddens me when people reference the stupid Tank Girl movie when there are so many fine acts of violence in the far superior Tank Girl comic books.

Additionally, anyone who thinks GW won't be reelected come November is setting themselves up for disappointment.

-chris
#48 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-12 17:35:24
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#46 Jibble
Soylent Green, coming soon to your grocer's freezer.

Disclaimer: Taste varies from person to person

I finally watched that movie for the first time last night.  "It's made of people!"  By implication and little evidence of course...  A modern remake would show the actual conversion process so I think someone should make it.  And more sex with the furniture plz...

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#49 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:35:40
I will vote against him, but will not be disappointed (or surprised in the least) when he carries my state (Texas) in a landslide.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#50 by chris
2004-01-12 17:37:11
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Maybe a modern remake could actually go by the book, in which Soylent Green is not made of people, but of Soy beans and Lentils.

-chris
#51 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:38:50
Soybean/lentil processing plant vs. People processing plant.

A winner is people processing.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#52 by jafd
2004-01-12 17:49:20
I'm doing my part to save humanity by refusing to breed.

Ask me about your mother.
#53 by chris
2004-01-12 17:50:16
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Hey, what do you know, something I agree with jafd on.

-chris
(no, that's not a joke about how jafd shouldn't breed. Though it easily could be. And probably should be)
#54 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:52:00
I'm doing my part by limiting myself to 6 or fewer children.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#55 by jafd
2004-01-12 17:53:21
Cool, that's like a whole squad.

Ask me about your mother.
#56 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:55:13
They'll be unstoppable when I'm done with them.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#57 by Caryn
2004-01-12 17:57:16
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I'm pretty sure we're going to adopt at some point.

I am in Kyoto
Yet at the voice of the Hototogisu
Longing for Kyoto
- Basho
#58 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:57:59
Adoption is one of the most noble things one can do.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#59 by jjohnsen
2004-01-12 17:58:35
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I will vote against him, but will not be disappointed (or surprised in the least) when he carries my state (Texas) in a landslide.


It is a little discouraging to know however I vote, my state go Republican every time.  Doesn't matter, I feel like the Democrats are going to implode any day now.  I don't see another Democrat in office until Hillary.

-Jeremy
#60 by Hieronymus
2004-01-12 18:02:22
Once again people, conservation is the key.  It can be with fewer trips like deadlock said, or with better public transit, or with more efficient cars.  With hydrogen fuel cells, you still have to disasociate (sp?) water in some central facility in order to get the hydrogen.  It's not clear to me that this is a more efficient method.  There is lots of coal around, but (and I say this as someone who's father was in the coal business for decades) it is a very dirty fuel and certainly not useful for small vehicles.  Although steam power cars would look cool in a retro way.
#61 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:04:13
Instead of horns, we could have train-style whistles!  Hooray!

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#62 by Neale
2004-01-12 18:11:14
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
#33 - #36

Thanks, that's a mouthful of tea now dripping off the bottom of my monitor.

9 years later you're the fat kid with his face pressed against the window of The Industry. - crash
#63 by McBain
2004-01-12 18:14:59
Right now talk of hydrogen fuel cell technology is fantasy.  There is currently no way to harvest or produce hydrogen effeciently (i.e. making it for less energy than the hydrogen produces).  Until we find a way to make hydrogen, there really isn't any point in making machinery that runs on it.  Bush was just pandering, essentially saying "I'll do nothing now about fuel economy".
#64 by The_Joker
2004-01-12 18:15:50
http://www.jackinworld.com
Re children: I want my own. It just feels better to see little Joker running around and knowing he's part of me.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
#65 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:15:58
While we're weeping for humanity...

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#66 by Dumdeedum
2004-01-12 18:17:06
http://www.dumdeedum.com
Hieronymus
With hydrogen fuel cells, you still have to disasociate (sp?) water in some central facility in order to get the hydrogen.  It's not clear to me that this is a more efficient method.

It's true that they don't solve the problem, merely displace it.  But centralized production facilities can be run more efficiently (and with less pollution) and as better methods of production come along they can be slotted into place without any effect on the car driving proletariat.

It doesn't solve all the problems, but it's a helpful step nevertheless.

Hello and welcome to the Black Mesa Hazard Course.
#67 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:17:49
#64 The_Joker
Re children: I want my own. It just feels better to see little Joker running around and knowing he's part of me.

Not a big fan of eugenics, then?

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#68 by Squeaky
2004-01-12 18:18:20
#65 Jibble
While we're weeping for humanity...

wasn't that just posted here a couple of days ago?

#69 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:19:33
I'm filling in for Eric.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#70 by m0nty
2004-01-12 18:22:34
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
It's also at least a year old.
#71 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:23:44
How about this then...Leslie had it pretty bad, but at least they didn't do this to him.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
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