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T O P I C
The End of Oil
January 12th 2004, 10:00 CET by zimbardo_ugly

Not that I'm trying to turn the 'Crap into Kuro5hin or anything, but I would love to discuss this thing with people who I - sort of - know a little. Well, know in the sense I know what to expect, at least.

Civilization as we know it has lasted for - what? - a couple of decades? I mean, it's hard to imagine modern society without the Internet, without telephone, without transportation or without food. And, according to this, which at first is very easy to dismiss with a wave of a hand as yet another raving paranoid monomaniac as credible as the rest of the Internet, civilization is about to change drastically in a few decades. The problem is, once you start following his "links" and following their links, you find a lot of moderately to most credible research data which kind of claims the world will not be able to support even a smallish fraction of its current population, once we run into the end of oil reserves. Also, "The days of cheap oil are numbered. Energy scarcity will bring major global recession, food shortages, fighting over resources, and (literally) billions of human deaths". How true is it? How true can it be?

We regard our civilization and our heritage as a huge, monolitic proof that our way of life cannot end. In that, we are wrong.
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#40 by Bailey
2004-01-12 17:08:41
The sooner we get to start shooting people for their go-juice, the happier I'll be.

Life without shame.
#41 by Charles
2004-01-12 17:21:03
www.bluh.org
GM is working on hydrogen fuel cell cars that are revolutionary.  It's all drive by wire, with no real engine.  Just some electric motors on each tire.  They are aiming to put them in full production within a decade.  

Current estimates show that by the time this is ready to go, hydrogen will still cost about ten times that of gasoline right now; but I figure that since the prices of gasoline and oil products are probably going to keep rising indefinitely, there probably won't be too big of a gap.  Plus I'm sure someone will figure out a better way of filling the hydrogen fuel cells.  Not only that, but as a transitionary element, gasoline fuel cells can be used with the car, instead of hydrogen fuel cells.  

I don't think the lack of oil will be a real issue cause there's a possible solution for just about every scenario.  And if there isn't a good one, we'll either A) Make it work, or B) find a better one.  It's amazing what pressure can do.

I'm not exactly worried about society collapsing because we can't take cars to work.

<Gabe> My indifference is palpable!
#42 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:24:32
If anything we'll get thinner.  All the better.

Re: Bailey - you're dying to stab people with that Tank Girl water harvesting device, aren't you.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#43 by Terata
2004-01-12 17:26:40
I think we all are.
#44 by Ashiran
2004-01-12 17:31:08
Fatties will just die.

Or be eaten.

I tolerate everything except intolerance.
#45 by deadlock
2004-01-12 17:32:17
http://www.deadlocked.org/
I'm stating the obvious here, but since no one else has bothered, here goes:

Whether or not oil shortages constitute a significant problem depends entirely on the situation and could even turn out to be a positive thing in some respects. Not being able to transport goods across the globe by road will probably be a bit of a boon for local employment, I'm (half-) thinking.

Also, a shortage for oil will pose a bigger problem for places like, say, Los Angeles than for New York or Paris. LA was/is built almost entirely with cars in mind, whereas NY and Paris where not. Obviously people in the suburbs of those cities will have a hard time travelling to/from the centres.

I'm thinking that one of the biggest obstacles (for the average road-user) will be getting people out of the mindset that makes them believe that they have to drive to the local shop rather than walk the two or three miles.

I know there are wider issues here (not everything that is currently distributed via our road network can be produced locally, for example), but even taking that into account I don't think we're quite into a Mad Max situation.

ridicule is nothing to be scared of
#46 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:32:27
Soylent Green, coming soon to your grocer's freezer.

Disclaimer: Taste varies from person to person

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#47 by chris
2004-01-12 17:34:33
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
It saddens me when people reference the stupid Tank Girl movie when there are so many fine acts of violence in the far superior Tank Girl comic books.

Additionally, anyone who thinks GW won't be reelected come November is setting themselves up for disappointment.

-chris
#48 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-12 17:35:24
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#46 Jibble
Soylent Green, coming soon to your grocer's freezer.

Disclaimer: Taste varies from person to person

I finally watched that movie for the first time last night.  "It's made of people!"  By implication and little evidence of course...  A modern remake would show the actual conversion process so I think someone should make it.  And more sex with the furniture plz...

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#49 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:35:40
I will vote against him, but will not be disappointed (or surprised in the least) when he carries my state (Texas) in a landslide.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#50 by chris
2004-01-12 17:37:11
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Maybe a modern remake could actually go by the book, in which Soylent Green is not made of people, but of Soy beans and Lentils.

-chris
#51 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:38:50
Soybean/lentil processing plant vs. People processing plant.

A winner is people processing.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#52 by jafd
2004-01-12 17:49:20
I'm doing my part to save humanity by refusing to breed.

Ask me about your mother.
#53 by chris
2004-01-12 17:50:16
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Hey, what do you know, something I agree with jafd on.

-chris
(no, that's not a joke about how jafd shouldn't breed. Though it easily could be. And probably should be)
#54 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:52:00
I'm doing my part by limiting myself to 6 or fewer children.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#55 by jafd
2004-01-12 17:53:21
Cool, that's like a whole squad.

Ask me about your mother.
#56 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:55:13
They'll be unstoppable when I'm done with them.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#57 by Caryn
2004-01-12 17:57:16
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I'm pretty sure we're going to adopt at some point.

I am in Kyoto
Yet at the voice of the Hototogisu
Longing for Kyoto
- Basho
#58 by Jibble
2004-01-12 17:57:59
Adoption is one of the most noble things one can do.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#59 by jjohnsen
2004-01-12 17:58:35
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I will vote against him, but will not be disappointed (or surprised in the least) when he carries my state (Texas) in a landslide.


It is a little discouraging to know however I vote, my state go Republican every time.  Doesn't matter, I feel like the Democrats are going to implode any day now.  I don't see another Democrat in office until Hillary.

-Jeremy
#60 by Hieronymus
2004-01-12 18:02:22
Once again people, conservation is the key.  It can be with fewer trips like deadlock said, or with better public transit, or with more efficient cars.  With hydrogen fuel cells, you still have to disasociate (sp?) water in some central facility in order to get the hydrogen.  It's not clear to me that this is a more efficient method.  There is lots of coal around, but (and I say this as someone who's father was in the coal business for decades) it is a very dirty fuel and certainly not useful for small vehicles.  Although steam power cars would look cool in a retro way.
#61 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:04:13
Instead of horns, we could have train-style whistles!  Hooray!

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#62 by Neale
2004-01-12 18:11:14
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
#33 - #36

Thanks, that's a mouthful of tea now dripping off the bottom of my monitor.

9 years later you're the fat kid with his face pressed against the window of The Industry. - crash
#63 by McBain
2004-01-12 18:14:59
Right now talk of hydrogen fuel cell technology is fantasy.  There is currently no way to harvest or produce hydrogen effeciently (i.e. making it for less energy than the hydrogen produces).  Until we find a way to make hydrogen, there really isn't any point in making machinery that runs on it.  Bush was just pandering, essentially saying "I'll do nothing now about fuel economy".
#64 by The_Joker
2004-01-12 18:15:50
http://www.jackinworld.com
Re children: I want my own. It just feels better to see little Joker running around and knowing he's part of me.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
#65 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:15:58
While we're weeping for humanity...

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#66 by Dumdeedum
2004-01-12 18:17:06
http://www.dumdeedum.com
Hieronymus
With hydrogen fuel cells, you still have to disasociate (sp?) water in some central facility in order to get the hydrogen.  It's not clear to me that this is a more efficient method.

It's true that they don't solve the problem, merely displace it.  But centralized production facilities can be run more efficiently (and with less pollution) and as better methods of production come along they can be slotted into place without any effect on the car driving proletariat.

It doesn't solve all the problems, but it's a helpful step nevertheless.

Hello and welcome to the Black Mesa Hazard Course.
#67 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:17:49
#64 The_Joker
Re children: I want my own. It just feels better to see little Joker running around and knowing he's part of me.

Not a big fan of eugenics, then?

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#68 by Squeaky
2004-01-12 18:18:20
#65 Jibble
While we're weeping for humanity...

wasn't that just posted here a couple of days ago?

#69 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:19:33
I'm filling in for Eric.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#70 by m0nty
2004-01-12 18:22:34
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
It's also at least a year old.
#71 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:23:44
How about this then...Leslie had it pretty bad, but at least they didn't do this to him.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#72 by The_Joker
2004-01-12 18:25:33
http://www.jackinworld.com
This thread is killing me.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
#73 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-12 18:28:21
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#65 Jibble
While we're weeping for humanity...

Welcome to 2 years ago.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#74 by Ergo
2004-01-12 18:33:24
#72 The_Joker
This thread is killing me.

At least it's serving a noble cause, then.

Cogite tute.
DVDs
#75 by chris
2004-01-12 18:45:13
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Adoption is a great thing. You're taking children that already exist and giving them a much better shot at having a good life with a loving family... something which all too few children really get the chance at (even including a hefty percentage of biological children with parents that opt to raise them).

-chris
#76 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:47:51
To elaborate on my adoption stance - it's incredibly selfless.  So many people share the Joker view of "it's not the same if it's not my blood flowing through their veins."  It's rare to find someone who's willing to adopt for the right reasons (I'd rather give an existing kid a chance).  That said, any kid raised in Caryn's household will be smarter than me by the time he/she turns 15.  Damn her for perpetuating me being wrong all the time.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#77 by Caryn
2004-01-12 18:50:24
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I'm deathly frightened of adoption at the moment, though, because if we adopt we feel it's unfair to ask for a baby only, so we could be looking at an older child. Unadopted older children tend to have more emotional and psychological issues, so I'm trying to steel myself for that possibility while we mull over the idea of adoption in general.

I am in Kyoto
Yet at the voice of the Hototogisu
Longing for Kyoto
- Basho
#78 by Caryn
2004-01-12 18:51:41
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
That is not to say that I wouldn't love an older child. My husband and I would. We're just really frightened of finding a morass of issues we aren't prepared for. But I guess that's the life of any parent.

I am in Kyoto
Yet at the voice of the Hototogisu
Longing for Kyoto
- Basho
#79 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:54:23
Your best bet is just to be prepared to be unprepared.

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#80 by deadlock
2004-01-12 18:54:55
http://www.deadlocked.org/
#78 Caryn
That is not to say that I wouldn't love an older child. My husband and I would. We're just really frightened of finding a morass of issues we aren't prepared for. But I guess that's the life of any parent.

Have you completely ruled out having a child of your own, or are you planning on adopting in addition to procreating? I'm just curious here, so tell me to get lost if I'm straying into territory that's far too personal.

ridicule is nothing to be scared of
#81 by Chunkstyle
2004-01-12 18:54:57
Unlike most parents, the issues would not be your fault.

Life is full of misery, loneliness, and suffering - and it's all over much too soon.
 -Woody Allen
#82 by Hugin
2004-01-12 18:56:45
lmccain@nber.org
If the kid acts up you can just sit him in the Spanking Chair.  ie, in front of a networked PC.  Then frag him till he cries and promises never to do it again.  Then at school he can complain to the guidance counselor about how bad his momma pwnes him.
#83 by Jibble
2004-01-12 18:58:12
I can hear that CPS call now.  "The child keeps saying that his mother killed him...then killed him again...and again and again...could you please send someone over there?"

Sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation I ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"  And always a little voice inside me answers, "Well, he probably wouldn't try to cram *another* corpse into the crawl-space, moron."
#84 by Caryn
2004-01-12 19:00:52
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
#80 deadlock
Have you completely ruled out having a child of your own, or are you planning on adopting in addition to procreating? I'm just curious here, so tell me to get lost if I'm straying into territory that's far too personal.


We've been trying to start a family for a few years now and haven't had any success. While we haven't been told outright yet that we can't have children, our doctor is telling us that we might want to start talking to fertility doctors because after years of nothing there are obviously some biological issues to overcome (I've already been taking medication for two years now to correct hormone imbalances that were supposed to help, and still nothing).

Adoption was always something my husband and I had mentioned casually. The difficulty of having a child of our own as well as the discussion earlier this year about possibly taking my brother's kids has brought it into sharper focus, though, and looks like it could become the primary way while still hoping that it happens naturally.

I am in Kyoto
Yet at the voice of the Hototogisu
Longing for Kyoto
- Basho
#85 by Your Friend
2004-01-12 19:03:10
I don't think Bush's reelection is nearly as much of a lock as some people are suggesting.  At about this time in the election cycle it was assumed his father was a complete lock too, riding high off the first Gulf War.  When the economy continued to not improve for the Average Joe he slid fast.  GWB could easily slide the same way unless he pulls 4 million jobs out of his ass and figures out how to fix the Iraq situation which is quickly turning into a legitimate quagmire.

Also, once the Democrats are done with the bickering, they are going to unite over the chosen nominee like never before and you'll see a large wave of anyone-but-Bush sentiment.

I'm pretty sure that Bush will, in fact, be defeated, barring voting machine trickery or the US suffering from a large terrorist attack before then (with him declaring a special state of emergency that extends his stay), the fact that I think such a thing is possible is kind of scary, and sounds somewhat tin-foily, unless you realize people like Tommy Franks also see it as a possibility.

Comment Signature
#86 by jjohnsen
2004-01-12 19:07:34
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I think it would be selfless but crazy to adopt a grown child.  My cousin was adopted when he was 1, then his parents adopted an eight year old about 10 years later.  Besides never accepting them as his family, they found out last year that he had been beating the shit out of my cousing (something he never told anyone).  He had huge psychological problems that they had trouble dealing with, and was a total mess.  Not saying you avoid all problems when adopting a small child, but at least you know they are problems caused by you and not someone else.

My wife's aunt adopted a little girl from Romania, and she's been great (aside from some growth problems, her biological mother bound her stomach to hide the pregnancy).

-Jeremy
#87 by chris
2004-01-12 19:09:09
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
I'm concerned that we're into 2004 and I literally can't tell you the first or last name of a single democrat who's even considering running.

That said, I hate both parties equally and think they're all a bunch of lying, thieving, evil bastards, so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

-chris
#88 by m0nty
2004-01-12 19:10:25
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I think Romero is adopting a baby from Romania. She looks young enough, anyway.
#89 by m0nty
2004-01-12 19:11:44
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
chris (#87):
That said, I hate both parties equally and think they're all a bunch of lying, thieving, evil bastards, so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Welcome to my International Theory of Geopolitics: evil versus evil.
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